


Meta Notes for SIE

by Shrike_Naasade



Series: Songs of Innocence and Experience [2]
Category: DCU (Comics)
Genre: Meta
Language: English
Status: In-Progress
Published: 2021-02-16
Updated: 2021-02-16
Packaged: 2021-03-12 08:13:31
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 3,180
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/29381877
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Shrike_Naasade/pseuds/Shrike_Naasade
Summary: This contains "meta posts" for SIE that wouldn't fit in chapter end notes.Externally hosted items are inherently unstable. At least, if I post the notes here, I know they'll stay here.Looking at you, Pillowfort.
Series: Songs of Innocence and Experience [2]
Series URL: https://archiveofourown.org/series/2126424
Comments: 2
Kudos: 17





	Meta Notes for SIE

# Meta Post for _Eternal Lines_ , Chapter 8

This contains oblique spoilers for Chapter 9.

Dick Grayson's heritage originated from an author of _Nightwing_ (1996), Devin Grayson. It was handled in a very poor, very racist manner. His ethnicity was carried into Rebirth, where DC's writing about the topic…yeah. I personally believe that it is important to move away from male whiteness as a default, but representation needs to be done thoughtfully, otherwise it simply causes further harm.

It is triply important in this case because, unlike many groups in current day Europe & America, the Roma people are still actively and publicly persecuted. I’m not talking blockbusting or being fired for natural hairstyles (not to negate the seriousness of such issues!), but literal forcible removal from their homes[1], confinement to ghettos[2], and open racism[3].

I put my money where my mouth is, and attempted to do so in SIE. I realize this is dangerous ground, and is beset by hazards like fetishization, tokenism, unintentional racism, and cultural essentialism. The best method to avoid this is to find accounts written by people of the culture; _listen_. I'm not some sort of authority or scholar, but I tried, and I hope it was enough.

This post is an explanation of the details that went into making SIE Dick. Before I get into that, I feel that I should clarify a few basic facts that I have either seen frequently confused in fic, or believe are worth reiterating: 

  1. "Roma" does not mean "Romanian", as in "a person from the country of Romania"—though there are Romanian Roma.
  2. “Roma” is an umbrella term for many subgroups.[4] It is not unlike the term “Hispanic”; saying that a Mexican person and Cuban person are from the same culture is baffling and incorrect. They share _commonalities_ , but they are not the same.
  3. In this vein, there is no one Roma language.[5] Dialects of Romani reflect the majority languages of their location.[6]
  4. "Gypsy", "Gipsy", "to gip" someone, "Gitan", "Gitanos", "chav", and are all slurs.



## SIE Dick

I used the following "immutable points" from Rebirth as a basis for Dick's background:

  * Mary Grayson's maiden name was Marie Lloyd, which she changed when she married[7]
  * Mary is Roma[8]
  * Mary spent time in Paris as a child[9]
  * Mary had a big heart and was unafraid to defy social convention[10]
  * John Grayson is not Roma[11]
  * There were no other Roma in Haly's, with the exception of Dr. Numb (aka Raptor)[12]
  * “Robin” was Mary’s name for Dick[13][14]



Mary Grayson’s subgroup is never specified in any continuity. In SIE, Dick is descended, through his mother, from Servika Roma, specifically Eastern Slovakian Roma. I settled on Eastern Slovakian by listening to audio samples of native Romani speakers—I had to _hear_ Dick speaking in my head[15][16]. From there, I developed a family history/backstory based on research of Eastern Slovakian Roma culture and history, looking specifically for primary sources.

As there were no other Roma in Haly’s, Dick did not grow up within a Roma community. However, I recognized overlap between traditional Eastern Slovakian Roma culture, and the culture of Haly’s. In SIE, Mary raised Dick with a blend of the fundamental beliefs of her youth and the ethos of Haly's, but never tells her son which concepts were specifically Servika Roma. When he was old enough to want to ask such questions, Mary was dead. Though we don’t see it in _Eternal Lines_ , Dick is very uncomfortable with calling himself Roma because he feels like an impostor.

The abbreviated version of his maternal line is this:

  * Mary "Marie" Jagori Lloyd
    * b. 1970 Paris, France d. 2007 Gotham City, New Jersey (murder)
  * Julie Dubois
    * b. 1950 Paris, France d. 1970 Paris, France (complications from childbirth)
    * Married an English expat, Mr. Lloyd
  * Ana
    * b. 1932 Slovakia d. 1989 Paris, France (heart failure)
    * Married a French soldier, M. Dubois
  * Eva
    * b. 1914 Slovakia d. 1944 Slovakia (killed by Nazi soldier for aiding resistance)
  * Zusa
    * b. 1897 Slovakia d. 1919 Slovakia (Spanish Influenza)



Why does it matter who they married? It's my attempt to explain why Dick is white-passing. Simply making “tan” or “olive” skinned doesn’t solve jack, nor does it explain why his _features_ are believably “white”—it also implies that all Roma look the same.

[Edit, 19 Feb 2021. The spouses of Dick's maternal ancestors matter for another, though less important, reason that I neglected to include. Assuming the "immutable points", there had to be a reason why Mary, a Roma person native to Paris, had a distinctly British surname. Assuming also the subgroup I settled upon, there had to be a reason why her ancestors ended up in Paris/France.] 

There are no explicit references to specific “traditions” aside from names and language in SIE. Many specific practices—specifically involving superstitions, clean/unclean, and honor/shame—I wouldn’t _dare_ include unless I could collaborate directly with a Roma person. I took overarching cultural beliefs and incorporated those. Yes, this is a thin line to essentialism.

To be frank, a lot of my research (from primary sources & the time period in question) described practices and beliefs that would be unacceptable to a modern audience. This included rampant misogyny[17][18] and acceptable domestic violence[19]. This could raise the argument that, by excluding certain parts, that I’ve ‘sanitized’ things. Luckily, the story wrote itself around the issue, and replaced it with a very real conflict faced by all Roma cultures: assimilation.[20][21]

Ana married a Frenchman, and Julie married an Englishman. They didn’t have other Servika Roma beyond their extended family (nephews, cousins), and likely lost some of their culture via assimilation. They also likely acquired new culture from mixing with the Manouche Roma of Paris.

Perhaps Mary, coming of age in 1980s Paris, chafed at cultural expectations, and desired to fly free. She left everything to live in an American traveling circus. That Mary would want to do this at all signifies a big shift in paradigms. This is an important part of what was passed to Dick: Servika Roma culture circa the 1940s— _not_ present-day culture, which has vastly changed since that time—mixed with some Manouche.

I didn’t have to shoehorn anything, because it all fit _seamlessly_ with Dick’s character. In SIE, Dick frequently mentions family and its importance to his life: this is drawn directly from Rebirth.

On the function of Family in traditional Servika Roma culture:

> “Family obligations came first (and, in many places, still do). They are sovereign; they are binding, because the very rights granted by the _fameľija_ are the foundation and the protection of existence. They are real, visible, understandable and tangible, whereas many other rights (of society as a whole) are, for Roma living in their traditional way, more or less abstract. Sometimes they are as impossible to understand as social obligations; sometimes they clash with family obligations rooted in a culture thousands of years old.
> 
> A person exists through his family; his family is the proof of his identity. The traditional family provides primary socialization, upbringing, and also professional preparation for life, economic and social support, a sense of security. The family was an enormously important sanctuary in a society where outbursts of anti-Roma genocidal aggression periodically flared up.”

\-- Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Famel’ija (Family)_

This is indicative of collective cultures on the whole; an individual defines themselves by their role in the group. The idea can be very confusing for someone who has only lived in an Individualistic culture (essentially all Western society). When asked “who are you?” a person from an individualistic culture might say: “I am a student” or “I am an author” or “I’m good at baseball.” A person from a collective culture might first say: “I am a son/daughter” or “I am a brother/sister”.

In the traditional Servika Roma family the “baro phral/čhavo”, eldest brother/son, was an immensely important role.

> “From his childhood, the baro phral helps his parents bring up his brothers and sisters, watches over them, directs their behaviour, organises their work, protects them from attack by other Romani or non-Romani children, represents his parents during their absence, etc. The baro phral had basically the same rights to educate his younger brothers and sisters as his parents. He could order, forbid, or, in cases of disobedience, even punish.  
> His status rises considerably when he enters the adult world at the age of fifteen or sixteen. This happens when his father invites him to sit down with him and other men at a communal table. After that, his role in rearing the children is nearly equal to his father's. The brother achieves the highest authority if the father dies. He becomes the head of the family. Even the mother's authority is often subordinated to him.  
> The baro phral, like the other sisters and brothers, provides protection for the children of his sisters and brothers even when, for example, they act against the will of their parents. Sometimes an adolescent son could protect his mother from being beaten.  
>   
>   
>  _Chuťiľom kijo dad a phenav: Vaš soske la mares? Vaš oda, kaj pre amende kerel sar koda graj? Vaš oda, kaj zajdi pre tute hordinel? A ov pre mande kavka dikhľa u akorestar la imar ňigda na marlas. Imar mandar ladžalas the daralas._ (V. Fabián)
> 
> "I ran over to my father and asked, "Why are you beating her? Because she slaves for us like a blind horse? Because she brings you food in a [zajda](http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/work/zajda.en.xml)?" And he only looked at me, but, after that, he never hit her. He was shy with me and he was afraid of me." (V. Fabián tells how, when he was twelve or thirteen, he caught his father beating his mother and he stood in front of her to protect her.)

\-- Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Baro Phral / Baro čhavo_

Dick had to get the “big heart” and “do good, boldly” from somewhere, and it made sense to say that he got it from Mary, who as a child, was unafraid to help a stigmatized boy and steal medicine to help the community. When I found in my research that Servika Roma were an important part of the Serbian resistance[22], it was logical to say that those traits were something of a family, but not cultural, tradition.

It’s not just cultural or upbrining; I believe Dick to be a genuinely loving person. It is the _marriage_ of all these parts, that is what makes us who we are.

If the culture has been so diluted, can Dick be considered a representation of Servika Roma, or any Roma?

I don’t know.

I can say that all subgroups of Roma show resilience, adapting and assimilating to wherever they reside without losing their heritage. And—perhaps—we hope that our children will do better, be better than us.

### On Language

Romani is a language spoken within the home/family, not outside.[23] This is part of the reason why [in SIE] Dick only passed it on to Damian. (Another reason is that nobody else ever asked—they looked at Dick and saw “white person”.)

Dick being non-literate has nothing to do with stereotypes. From my research, Eastern Slovakian Romani was generally a spoken language[24], with no standardized writing system, until 1968[25]. His maternal great-grandmother left Slovakia as a girl after the fall of the Third Reich; she may not have known how to write or read Romani. Ergo, neither his mother or grandmother would have known, and couldn’t have taught Dick.

### On Names

The tradition of two names—for Slovak Roma—arose from “””progressive””” assimilation policies that ordered all Roma to have Christian names. The specific edict came from Maria Theresia, Empress of the Austo-Hungarian Empire, in 1761[26]. Now known as gadje names, they are used in official documentation. Typically, the Romani name was used within the family and community. A child is traditionally not named when they are born, but when they grow older and start to develop as a person—a name says something about their character or appearance.[27]

Mary was named Jagori, “little fire”, in SIE because she was a spirited hellraiser. Dick doesn’t mention the story about his mother stealing medicine from the French government because he learns from Raptor _after_ Spyral.[28]

Dick was named Robin because he was constantly “bobbing along like a robin”, he was cheerful, and loved to fly.

### On the Term “Gadžo”

Gadžo literally means “non-Roma”.[29] It is misleadingly defined in _Deathstroke_ (2016) #25 as “barbarian”. It _can_ used pejoratively, but it is not inherently pejorative.[30][31] It is often spelled “gadje” because ž makes a “j” noise.

Consider the term “Rube”. Rube means “anyone from outside the circus”. It’s the same concept, and is a cultural definer.

Similarly, I think it is very important to remember:

  1. Rose is Hmong[32]
  2. Rose is Hmong who was living in hiding in Cambodia[33]
  3. Rose is an immigrant who came to the United States as a tween[34]
  4. [In SIE] Rose was then raised in a community of immigrants and first gen citizens. 



We’ll be seeing more of her in the last few chapters.

#### Further Reading—Roma Voices on Dick Grayson

<https://dick-grayson-defense-squad.tumblr.com/post/154830502994/a-romani-persons-perspective>

<https://thenerdsofcolor.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/romani3.png>

<https://luanna255.tumblr.com/post/30021748076/aeedee-misterfuzzyrainbow-way-schway>

[I did have more, but I found them almost a year ago on the fae site, and like a fool I didn’t save the URLs.]

* * *

### Works Cited

DeFalco, Tom and Higgins, Kyle. _Nightwing_. No. 0, DC Comics, 2012.

Dixon, Chuck. _Nightwing_. No. 7, DC Comics, 1997.

France: One Year On, New Abuses against Roma. (2011, September 29). Retrieved from <https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/29/france-one-year-new-abuses-against-roma>

Gdovinova, D., & Olsovsky, F. (2019, March 25). If We Were Roma, We Wouldn't Come Back From Britain. _Transitions Online_. Retrieved January 22, 2020, from <https://tol.org/client/article/28307-if-we-were-roma-we-wouldnt-come-back-from-britain.html>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Baro Phral / Baro čhavo. Retrieved from http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/artframe.pl?src=data/ethn/social/brother-old.en.xml

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Famel’ija (Family). Retrieved from http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/social/family.en.xml

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Bari Phen. Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/social/sister.en.xml>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Classification and Varieties. Retrieved from http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/lang/gen/class.en.xml

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Daj / Dad. Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/social/parents-03.en.xml>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Effects of Assimilation-Policy. Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/hist/modern/19-effects.en.xml>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Names of Roma. Retrieved from http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/topics/family-names.en.xml

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Racism and Human Rights. Retrieved from http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/hist/current/racism.en.xml

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Roma – Sub Ethnic Groups. Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/topics/names.en.xml>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). Servika Roma (Slovak Roma, kherutne/domaca Roma). Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-servika.en.xml>

Hübschmannová, M., & Alinčová, M. (2002, September). The sociolinguistic situation of Romani. Retrieved from <http://rombase.uni-graz.at/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/lang/socio/socio.en.xml>

Matras, Y. (Ed.). (2001, May). Gadžo. In _Romlex_. Retrieved from [http://romani.uni-graz.at/romlex/lex.cgi?st=gad%C5%BEo&rev=n&cl1=rmce&cl2=en&fi=&pm=in&ic=y&im=y&wc=](http://romani.uni-graz.at/romlex/lex.cgi?st=gad%C5%BEo&rev=n&cl1=rmce&cl2=en&fi=&pm=in&ic=y&im=y&wc=)

Matras, Y., & Elšík, V. (n.d.). _Romani Morpho-Syntax Database_ [Scholarly project]. Retrieved from https://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/rms/

Mekamavtut-blog. (2014, June 3). Retrieved from https://mekamavtut-blog.tumblr.com/post/87689891765/can-we-just-take-a-moment-to-talk-about-the

Orlando, Steve and Seeley, Tim. _Nightwing_. No. 8, DC Comics, 2016.

Priest, Christopher. _Deathstroke_. No. 10, DC Comics, 2017.

Priest, Christopher. _Deathstroke_. No. 37, DC Comics, 2018.

Priest, Christopher. _Deathstroke_. No. 45, DC Comics, 2019.

Priest, Christopher. _Deathstroke_. No. 46, DC Comics, 2019.

Priest, Christopher. _Deathstroke_. No. 47, DC Comics, 2019.

Ryvolová, K. (2011, August 3). The two cultures of the Czech Roma. _Eurozine_. Retrieved January 22, 2020, from https://www.eurozine.com/the-two-cultures-of-the-czech-roma/

Seeley, Tim. _Nightwing_. No. 32, DC Comics, 2018.

Smith, A. L. (2013, December 25). The New Roma Ghettos. _Vice_. Retrieved from <https://www.vice.com/en/article/wdpmdm/the-new-roma-ghettos-000519-v20n4>

The Wanderlust Queen. (2014, August 22). Retrieved from https://mytsunami.tumblr.com/post/95463824128/dear-white-folks

Zjaveňie. (2019). In _Le Devleskero Lav Andre Romaňi Čhib_. Retrieved from https://live.bible.is/bible/rmcwfw/REV/1?audio_type=audio_drama

* * *

[1] _France: One Year On, New Abuses against Roma_

[2] Smith, _The New Roma Ghettos_

[3] Gdovinova & Olsovsky, _If We Were Roma, We Wouldn't Come Back From Britain “_ Finally, Penfold adds the observation that irritates him the most when he is talking to Slovak or Czech teachers. “In 2012, some of them were telling me: ‘Mr. Penfold, you have to understand the Roma have lower IQs; they’re susceptible to mental retardation and have serious problems with hygiene. There is nothing we can do for them,’” says Penfold, outraged. _”_

[4] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Roma – Sub Ethnic Groups_

[5] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Classification and Varieties_

[6] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Introduction_

[7] _Nightwing_ (2016) #32

[8] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8, 32

[9] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8, 32

[10] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8, 32 Raptor recalls that while everyone else left him to die of Leprosy, young Mary marched right into his home, and essentially saved his life. Together, they later stole medicines that the French government withheld from the Manouche community.

[11] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8 While this is not explicitly stated, Mary has to explain to John why Raptor would feel obligated to protect her. If John were Roma, he wouldn’t need that explained.

[12] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8, 32

[13] _Nightwing_ (2011) #0

[14] _Nightwing_ (1996) #7

[15] Matras & Elšík, _Romani Morpho-Syntax Database_

[16] _Le Devleskero Lav Andre Romaňi Čhib_

[17] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Daj / Dad_

[18] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Bari Phen_

[19] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Daj / Dad_

[20] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Effects of Assimilation-Policy_

[21] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Racism and Human Rights_

[22] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Servika Roma (Slovak Roma, kherutne/domaca Roma)_  
Unlike the Roma in other parts of Europe, Slovak Roma weren’t slaughtered en masse. They knew what was coming down the line, though, and many aided underground resistance efforts, along with Jewish Slovaks

[23] Ryvolová, _The two cultures of the Czech Roma_

[24] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _The sociolinguistic situation of Romani_

[25] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Servika Roma (Slovak Roma, kherutne/domaca Roma)_

[26] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Names of Roma_

[27] Hübschmannová & Alinčová, _Names of Roma_

[28] _Nightwing_ (2016) #8

[29] Matras, _Romlex_

[30] mekamavtut-blog, 2014

[31] The Wanderlust Queen, 2014

[32] _Deathstroke_ (2016) #10

[33] _Deathstroke_ (2016) #45

[34] _Deathstroke_ (2016) # 37, 46, 47


End file.
